Curse

Sausaletus Rex · Feb 26, 2005, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Yet again, the Gurus are pleased to present something new for those who're visiting our site. Presenting the inaugeral Alpha Roundtable.

Now, we're all aware of the current NDA restrictions (If you're not, it's simple. We can't say anything that you couldn't have seen last weekend. There, told you it was simple.) which prevent us helpful alphas from just logging in game and giving you the latest input on something. So, we've attempted to provide the next best thing by gathering together some of the learned minds of the playtest and setting them to talking about this topic or that topic. Once we're sure that we're not going to get yelled at for telling you about the coolest thing ever that the devs just put in that afternoon like [content deleted] we'll bring that conversation into the public square for everyone to talk about.

For our first time out we decided to stick to something simple and well-known. We asked our alphas to sharpen someone's build to razor's sharpness. Since the effectiveness of Rangers has come up lately, it was decided to discuss a Ranger build. That build was the Warrior's Bane posted by Weezer_Blue which you can view here as well as in the roundtable article. Along the way we hoped the alphas might shed a little light on just why Rangers are so damned good as well as some of their battle tested tricks towards making a Ranger shine and we think you'll be pleased with the results.

So, here's your thread to discuss this roundtable as well as make a request for something you'd like talked about in an upcoming one. After all, the faces may change, but the table's going to around for a while.

Edited to add :

Important note. The "Go" button at the bottom of the article isn't working at the moment, it'll send you back to the site's main page. The drop-down and "next page" link are working correctly, though.

shawns21 · Feb 26, 2005, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Awesome! Very good read.... Thanks

Narcism · Feb 26, 2005, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Very nice Saus! Twas a good time

I was pleased with the results at the end. My personal favorite would definitely have to be the Furious Bowman.

Bobangry · Feb 26, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Very good read guys! The Snare Sniper's Ice Spikes + Barrage looks sick but I'd probably have to agree with Narc and go with the Furious Bowman. I like the alternative builds presented however, that was a nice touch. Keep up the good work.

Sausaletus Rex · Feb 26, 2005, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Yeah, I think the Furious Bowman really takes the cake, too. That's just a nasty build. To me, it's a bit overly specialized but not any more than your dedicated healer or other character who's put all their eggs in one basket, so to speak. You pluck a bow you have to take the good with the bad with all that. It's got nice damage with Favorable+Conjure+Barrage+Dual and nice disruption with Distracting+Debilitating. It's light on defense but that's what your support characters are for. There possibly a bit more that could be done here. Distracting Shot seems like its not going to have much of a spot in the Barrage+Dual+Debiliating continuous spamming and maybe there's something else that's a little further afield that could be added instead. But Distracting will be excellent for when you really need it so it could just as easily be left in.

The other builds are okay, maybe a little questionable, especially the Asbestos Archer - which was more an example of coming up with a flavor idea and trying to cram a build into it than anything else - but I thought they were a good illustration of just how easily you can twist a character around with just a few simple tweaks. After all, say Weezer has all those skills learned, the only thing limiting him from playing any of those four builds on a given day is his refund points. And even that's not a big issue because for the most part the Elementalist line is there only for the Conjure. Both the Furious Bowman and Asbestos Archer don't really care what line you're using there so you're just slotting skills and swapping equipment. That, to me, is really the beauty of GW; our characters are going to be amazingly flexible.

Besides, I can't let Freyas have all the fun with the wacky builds, can I?

Narcism · Feb 26, 2005, 08:01 AM // 08:01

As for the Asbestos Archer with Greater Conflaguration. It does sound like something you'd run in Arena or with a well-coordinated team. Seeing as how it puts all the Warriors at a disadvantage since all of their armor has +XX AL to physical AL.

BlackArrow · Feb 26, 2005, 08:02 AM // 08:02

That was a great read. You've renewed my interest in Rangers. I look forward to the next one.

One thing I'd like to ask is, if you switched the secondary to Monk and all the Air Magic attributes into Smiting, how well would Zealot's Fire work with Barrage? Have you guys tried this before?

I like the idea of having res along for PvE and thought I'd check out the smiting skills to replace Conjure Lightning. Zealot's Fire was the only one that looked promising to me.

Sausaletus Rex · Feb 26, 2005, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Thanks, everyone for the kind words so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcism

As for the Asbestos Archer with Greater Conflaguration. It does sound like something you'd run in Arena or with a well-coordinated team. Seeing as how it puts all the Warriors at a disadvantage since all of their armor has +XX AL to physical AL.

Right. Well, any war armor except Gladiator's. That's 80AL +1 en. But that would mean someone was actually using Gladiator's and why are you grouped with someone who can't tie their own shoelaces?

Conflagration is a big penalty to any Warrior, true. It's a nifty little trick, though, and one I think can work well. The Ranger's increased elemental protection overall means you can do crazy things like get 115AL without even trying. Conflagration and Drakescale mean you've turned all damage that will interract with armor except for three of the four elemental damages into an annoyance. That's not just half damage reduction, that's more than half as it's past the magic +40AL figure. You can do similar thing with Frostbound armor and Blizzard.

Like you say, you don't want to just head into a match and say "Hey guys, I'm using Conflagration now, sucks to be a war, huh? k thx." But in a more organized team you can really take advantage of it. It's got defnite possibilities, especially as several professions can get +vs. Fire or elemental damage, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackarrow

One thing I'd like to ask is, if you switched the secondary to Monk and all the Air Magic attributes into Smiting, how well would Zealot's Fire work with Barrage? Have you guys tried this before?

I like the idea of having res along for PvE and thought I'd check out the smiting skills to replace Conjure Lightning. Zealot's Fire was the only one that looked promising to me.

RaMo are certainly very viable combinations. Like the WaMo they augment their profession's stability with the defensive capabilties of the Monk list.

Going Smiting with one is something I haven't personally tried, I don't think. At least, not recently enough to be very valuable. However, something like Judge's Insight can replace the damage boosting effects of a Conjure. It's a poorer option because it's shorter duration will put more of a drag on your energy pool but that's what you get for looking for offense in a primarily defensive skill list. Zealot's Fire, though, would work awfully with Barrage. As I understand it, Zealot's Fire is triggered when you cast a spell on a target ally. That ally then has a PBAoE Fire damage. That has several problems. Firstly, you don't use Barrage on an ally, you use it on an enemy, it's not going to trigger Zealot's Fire. Second, even if it did, Zealot's Fire requires you to be up close to your enemy, they need to be "nearby". As a Ranger you'll want to stay at range because one of your big advantages is the big reach of your bow.

It's not going to be as good for your damage output as the Elementalist skill list, that's the bottom line. But while Smiting isn't of much help to you a RaMo can still work well. You're just playing a little more defensively than purely offensive.

BE|Dac · Feb 26, 2005, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Warrior's Bane of Blood

(Blood Eagle style)

14 Marksmanship
12 expertise
6 Water Magic

Runes:
Major Marksmaship
Minor Expertise

Read The wind
Conjure Frost
Blurred Vision
Marksmans Wager
Power Shot
Precision Shot
Hunters Shot
Whirling Defense

Basically idea is...

Arena:

Start with Conjure Frost +7 damage
into Read the the wind for around+16-18 damage

Now open with Hunters Shot on the warrior your gonna kill..
Into Powers Shot, Into precisions etc...
Now.. Use Marksmans Wager
Shoot him a few times..
Blurred vision, Hunters etc...
keep adding the damage
switch back to read the wind with full energy
and continue

Using Whirling defense for personal Defense.

BlackArrow · Feb 26, 2005, 08:57 AM // 08:57

I misread Zealot's Fire, thanks for the clarification. I need to read more thoroughly when I try to get good ideas.

One more question. You mentioned in the discussion where 13 Expertise lowered 5, 15, and 25 energy skills to, what does 10 energy end up at? (I hope I didn't miss that too)

Pharalon · Feb 26, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00

clicky

We really need to find a way to insert this link automatically evertime "ranger" is mention in a thread....

Ensign · Feb 26, 2005, 11:21 AM // 11:21

14 Expertise / 12 Marksmanship is like a million times better than 12 Expertise / 14 Marksmanship.

Peace,
-CxE

Terphin · Feb 26, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Great read guys, and really enjoy the indepth level you guys go into. How often will you guys do this then ?

Zrave · Feb 26, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

I had a build almost exactly like your furious ranger, except I had concussion shot instead of distracting shot. I think you are right that people are learning to remove daze, so I'll switch to the latter.

I had eventually settled on debilitating shot over hunter's shot due to my group build needs, but it was a much harder decision than yours. I assume this means KT's listing for hunter's shot at 5 energy is incorrect?

My attributes were 11 expertise/11 marksmanship/8 air magic/3 beastmastery, for 14 expertise with a major, and the rest minors.

I also didn't know that conjure lightning didn't have AP, that was a good find. Given this, though in my experience air is the least used element (conjurable), I will might switch to water to metagame against silk armor.

After reading Keramon's guide, I had chosen the druid's set; it was the only one that gave extra energy. If hunter's also gives the bonus I'll use that instead.

I think this discussion project is a really good idea and produces superior results. Looking forward to further analyses.

Sausaletus Rex · Feb 26, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Zrave, if you were running the Furious Archer's evil twin brother from a parrallel dimension, I'd be interested in knowing your experiences for it. Specifically, I'm curious about just how often you were able to get that AoE damage from Barrage and how you were doing on energy in full out assault mode. But, us alphas can't say anything if we try that build for about a month and even just a general impression of how it was working for you would be valuable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackarrow

You mentioned in the discussion where 13 Expertise lowered 5, 15, and 25 energy skills to, what does 10 energy end up at? (I hope I didn't miss that too)

I believe it was, in fact, mentioned when we were discussing the attributes, if only briefly and in passing.

For 5, 10, 15, and 25 energy skills
12 Expertise means 3, 5, 8, 13 or about 50% reduction.
13 Expertise means 2, 5, 7, 12 or about 54% reduction.
14 Expertise means 2, 4, 7, 11 or about 58% reduction.

Ther's percentile reduction but because of rounding (The game seems to round to the nearest odd number when things are in doubt) what you'll actually get is a few plateus. For example, look at the shift from 12 Expertise to 13 Expertise. That's going from 3 energy to 2 energy. A charge from 40% reduction to 60% reduction, in other words. This means there are going to be "sweet spots" where you're getting a bigger benefit than just multiplying the Expertise bonus would imply.

It depends what kind of skills you're using, of course, but the best spots to get at right now seem to be 13 or 14. 13 will reduce 5 energy skills from 3 to 2 energy, 15 energy skills from 8 to 7, and 25 energy skills from 13 to 12 while 10 energy skills remain at 7. 14 will reduce 10 energy skills from 5 to 4 and 25 from 12 to 11 while 5 en and 15 en remain at 2 and 7 respectively. What's really going to matter is how many of what cost skills you're using. If you use a lot of 5 energy skills, going from 13 to 14 isn't the most sensible move as you'll have no tangible benefit unless you're using 10 or 25 energy skills. If, instead, you use a lot of those 10 energy skills then going to 14 is attractive because you get that further 10% cost reduction.

However, to get that high, you're likely going to have to give up something. We used a base 11/10/10 build for the roundtable which is a setup that gives you three nice, high attributes after runes and headgear and even then we needed a major rune to get to Expertise 13. To get to Expertise 14 you're either using a +2 rune for both Expertise and Marksmanship with a +1 Expertise hat or a +3 rune for Expertise and a +1 rune with a +1 hat for Marksmanship. Either way, you're looking at -100 hp to get 4 energy costs for your 10 en skills. There are other ways of getting there, of course, a 12/12/3 build easily turns into 14/13 without any health drop but you also give up 7 ranks in your third attribute. Getting to 14 is not going to be without cost and personally, I'd be happy at Expertise 13. Another -50hp isn't all that big of a deal, really, when you get right down to it, so it's certainly not a bad move I just think point for point, the sweetest spot - especially for a Barrage spamming build - is at 13 rather than 14.

I'll agree with Chuckles, though. Marksmanship is tied to your bow damage. At 12 you're getting about 100% of your listed damage. At 11 you're getting 90% or so and at 13 you're getting 105% or so. A cost of however many AP to get a measly return isn't the best way to allot your points. Pushing Marksmanship past 12 brings increasingly diminishing results. Pushing Expertise past 12, on the other hand, gives some very nice results as you'll deal with rounding and there's no drop off in returns. Expertise always gives you -4 cost reduction, it doesn't trail off like Marksmanship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

I had eventually settled on debilitating shot over hunter's shot due to my group build needs, but it was a much harder decision than yours. I assume this means KT's listing for hunter's shot at 5 energy is incorrect?

The most current, public listing I know of Hunter's Shot has it at 10 energy, 5 seconds recharge. It's not a bad skill, by any means, I just don't think it fit very well with the Ranger build here. Hunter's Shot will deal about as much extra damage as Power Shot for the same energy cost and 1 second less of a recycle time. If you're happy using Power Shot you'll be happier using Hunter's Shot. That's because it also causes Bleeding if it hits someone who's moving. Bleeding isn't that dangerous, but it's another 6DPS or so on top of everything else you're doing. It's also going to be for a pretty long duration, much longer than the recharge on Hunter's is so you'll be just extending the duration of it if you're spamming Hunter's - if you can catch someone moving, of course. So, heads up against Power Shot, it's the winner hands down. For a single target hitter, there's also Penetrating Attack. If you're fighting targets with 70AL or more, it'll do more damage than Power Shot. It's also 5 energy and 3 seconds recharge so you can use it a lot more often.

However, there's also Dual Shot, which we're using with our Ranger builds for the most part. That gives you two shots at 75% damage for 10 energy with a 5 second recharge. Or, 150% of your listed damage which is more than you'll get out of Power Shot and probably Penetrating Attack and Hunter's Shot as well. On top of that, we were planning on using both Favorable Winds and a Conjure (Like you say, whatever one's best given the current meta-game, we can use any of them) which add damage on each and every arrow hit. With Hunter's you get that extra damage once. With Dual you get it twice. So, Dual gets the nod if you're planning on using any damage adds like Orders or Winnowing or Judge's Insight or anything else along those lines.

That's one big stick. The other is Barrage which is 5 energy and 1 second recharge. I'll say that again, 1 second recharge. That means that every other attack is capable of being a Barrage and with high Expertise it's going to cost you next to nothing to do it in. A Ranger has 3 pips of regen, that's 1 energy a second, a 2 or 3 energy Barrage will be at or under their natural regeneration rate given the fact that the time it takes to cast Barrage is the time it takes to pluck a bow and that time is usually around 2 seconds. It adds less damage than Hunter's or Power Shot (I believe it's +14 with Marks 12) but it still adds some damage to each shot by itself since you'll be casting it a lot more often it really adds up. Then, like Dual Shot, Barrage is capable of landing multiple hits. Each and every person you hit with it is getting the full force of your damage adds.

That's two big sticks which are going to be shot as often as possible. Following them closely is going to be a Debilitating Shot (10 energy, 5 seconds). A Debilitating Shot every 6 or 8 seconds is the equivalent of about 3 pips of negative regen (which would be 9 energy in 9 seconds, you're actually above that but it depends on your swing rate which is pretty variable with Tiger's Fury, dfferent bow types, and weapon mods so I'm not going to bother getting much more exact). I don't care what your target is, putting -3 degen on their energy pool is a good thing. And, you'll be getting your normal bow damage with all your damage adds, too.

So, you're going to be spamming Barrage, Dual, and Debilitating before you even get to considering Hunter's Shot. It's a good skill for dealing damage but we already have 3 attack skills which are going to see heavy use. What I look for at that point is not another skill to increase my DPS - I'm not even sure I can fit it in the rotation with those low recycle rates. It depends on the swing rate but if I'm lucky I'm getting close to getting Barrage+Dual+BarrageDebilitating+Barrage+Dual+Barr age+Debilitating+Barrage as infinitly sustainable even with Tiger's Fury and the fastest bow available, in other words, I'm the equivalent of an axe war with 2 hit Cleave, I don't have a lot of space to put things in before I start stepping on my own toes (I'm not sure, I'd have to work it all out but if each attack lasts for about 2 seconds then it's feasable) - I'm looking for something with a bit more utility. My DPS is maxed out, I'm not looking to add another +6DPS, then, I'm looking for something that's going to give me another tool for my toolbelt, expand my capabilities a bit. Remember, I like my builds to cover as many bases as possible. Distracting Shot and Pin Down offer that *something else* that Hunter's wouldn't give this build. What does Hunter's add that you don't already have? Bleeding. What does Pin Down? A target that can't dodge, can't move out of range, can't get to your healer as well, and more. What does Distracting? A skill that's going to prevent someone from rezzing or getting off any other skill they might desperately want as well as the ability to switch to heavy caster denial by moving to spamming Debilitating+Distracting. I'll take the more tactical options, hands down, since I've already got my damage base covered.

Hunter's Shot is definitly in that first or second tier of Ranger attacks but in the builds we were dealing with it's largely forgettable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

My attributes were 11 expertise/11 marksmanship/8 air magic/3 beastmastery, for 14 expertise with a major, and the rest minors.

Certainly a good attribute setup, I wish I'd thought of that. That's 14/12/8/4 all told and that makes for a decent Tiger's Fury as well as an alright Conjure. Personally, I think you can get by with Beastmastery 2 there and not sacrifice the damage from the Conjure and if energy is a problem it's best to switch to something like a 11/10/8/6 build, which'll drop things from your Conjure as much as 11/11/8/3 but give you an extra second's duration on Tiger's Fury, but it's a good way to go if your sweet spot is that, what, 7 second duration with Beastmastery 4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

I also didn't know that conjure lightning didn't have AP, that was a good find. Given this, though in my experience air is the least used element (conjurable), I will might switch to water to metagame against silk armor.

Worth emphasizing, then. Only skills that deal lightning damage have armor penetration. Conjure Lightning and that lightning damage mod on your weapon grant no innate ability to bypass armor. Only things like Lightning Stike or Shock do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

After reading Keramon's guide, I had chosen the druid's set; it was the only one that gave extra energy. If hunter's also gives the bonus I'll use that instead.

I'll have to check on that because when I saw Hunter's armor was +energy I was pretty skeptical myself. That's really good armor if it is and leaves Druid's in the dust. If you're right, then, yes, the armor of choice is Druid's (except for the Asbestos Archer but he'll likely want a set to swap to, in any event.) and not Hunter's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terphin

How often will you guys do this then ?

We're not certain at this point. It was a nice time and everyone involved seems to have walked away happy so we're definitly going to be trying to do it again. It's certainly our intent to make it a semi-regular feature here at the Guru we're just not certain how regular just yet. But, hey, any alphas out there who want to sit in on the next one just get in touch with me because we're starting to plan it out now.

Keramon · Feb 26, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Think you will find the Hunter's set gives +5 and the Druid's Set gives +9.

So yes, the Druid's set gives extra energy at the cost of +15AL vs Piercing Attacks. (in comparison with the hunter's set).

Shrapnel_Magnet · Feb 26, 2005, 05:38 PM // 17:38

I used Hunter's Shot extensively during this past Beta and it was only 5 energy to cast... with... I dunno how long of a recharge, but it wasn't long at all. It was the 5 energy cost that initially drew me to it, in favour of Dual Shot. (So unless they change things for the next event, it's 5)

For me, I prefer Read The Wind to Favourable Winds, mostly cause I'm not a fan of DP... but to be honest, I really haven't tried it. I just like the fact that a Read The Wind + Hunter's Shot only cost 10 energy (with no Expertise) and had a chance of causing bleeding, and I was shooting faster arrows.

One skill that I'm still unsure about (for recharge time) is Posion Arrow. Anyone use that in the last event? I remember seeing it, in Quarrel Falls but I didn't pick it up. This site says 10 Second Recharge time, while others say 1 Second. I really really HOPE it's 1 second, lol.

BlackArrow · Feb 26, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

For me, I prefer Read The Wind to Favourable Winds, mostly cause I'm not a fan of DP... but to be honest, I really haven't tried it. I just like the fact that a Read The Wind + Hunter's Shot only cost 10 energy (with no Expertise) and had a chance of causing bleeding, and I was shooting faster arrows.

The problem with Read the Wind for this build is that it won't affect Barrage and will actually be removed when Barrage is fired. Favorable Winds as a Nature Ritual won't be removed when Barrage is fired.

How long do you find it takes the 5%dp to wear off in either PvE or PvP. Is it before Favorable Winds expires?

Shrapnel_Magnet · Feb 26, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

The PvP I usually played in didn't last longer than a minute usually, lol. Yeah, I see that Read the Wind wouldn't help this build, now that you point it out... I think that was the reason I chose to not use Barrage (cancelling).

Unfortunatly, I'm not sure if it would wear off before it expires... mostly cause I stayed away from the Nature Ritual skills (only have 3 days to play at a time!). I didn't toy with too many skills that didn't immediatly appeal to me... lol, not a good Beta Tester mentality, but my time was limited, :P If I had more time I know I'd be trying ridiculous combos, just cause that's what I really like to do, but not when I have a weekend to do it in.

/me waits for release

Zrave · Feb 26, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Pity that the ranger was the only build from my 8-man setup that wasn't used due to lack of a player... I leave the floor open for anyone that ran barrage to divulge their experiences :P